Sunday, January 20, 2008

Winter Soldier 2008 Preview - for Money!

Here we go with a Winter Soldier Investigation 2008 preview from News 10 in Watertown, New York. The report is about what was said by IVAW members at a, -er, fundraiser held at the Different Drummer Cafe:

(quotes are in italics)

Anti-war group says war crimes are "encouraged"
1/19/2008 5:10 PM
By: Brian Dwyer

WATERTOWN, NY - "I was messed up in the head. It was okay for me. I laughed afterwards. We all did. It's just the way things go."

Iraq war veteran Jon Turner said it was almost expected of him to pull the trigger on people who didn't need to die. So he did.

"It was my decision," Turner said. "I made it. Now I have to live with the fact I see someone's eyes screaming at me after I shot them."

But Turner says it wasn't his choice to be encouraged to do it from higher ranking officers. He and three other veterans speaking out Saturday at the Different Drummer Cafe in Watertown said committing war crimes is not only the way things go, but it's unofficial policy.


I’ll interrupt for a sec. Note the usual pattern: kinda short on details like who, what and where, dates, units involved! Unofficial policy? Turner has spoken before. From something called the Journalism Student’s Online News Service:

"I joined the war because I wanted to kill," Turner said, "But when I identified my dead friend, Richard James, after he got shot in the forehead, I saw that something was wrong in that war."

I am not sure that “I wanted to kill” is a common or indeed proper motive for enlistment and isn’t rather a sign that Jon had some issues before his service. Continuing with the report on the fundraiser:

War crimes "encouraged?"

A group of Iraq war veterans are planning a gathering in Washington D.C. in March to talk about war crimes they've seen or committed during their tours of duty.

"The killing of innocent civilians is policy," veteran Mike Blake said. "It's unit policy and it's Army policy. It's not official policy, but it's what's happens on the ground everyday. It's what unit commanders individually encourage."

Unit policy, Army policy but not official policy! Mike Blake has a history, including disrupting the funeral of a fallen soldier, Cpl.Timothy Swanson, much to the distress of the slain young man’s family. Robin at Chickenhawk Express has more.

The group, part of the national organization called Iraq Veterans Against War are planning an event to be held in Washington, D.C. this coming March called "Winter Soldier" that will have veterans all speaking about war crimes they committed or witnessed during their tours of duty.

"These decisions are coming from the top down," veteran Matt Howard said. "The tactics that we use. The policies that the military engages will create situations, create dynamics, create, ultimately, atrocity."

Matt Howard is something of a pseudo-historian. He is quoted at Dandelion Salad as having said:

“So Iraq Veterans Against the War is taking back our history – the history that has been robbed from us. We are dispelling the myth that the Vietnam war ended when the Democrats started voting against it. Instead we are spreading the truth about how the American War in Vietnam ended. The Vietnam War ended when soldiers put down their weapons and refused to fight; when pilots dropped their bombs in the ocean.”

Really? Think he got that from his deluded VVAW elders who are having acid as opposed to combat flashbacks? 1972 was the last year in which we had a sizeable military presence in Vietnam. By the end of that year, we had about 24,000 troops in country. In the spring of that year, the North Vietnamese communists launched the EasterTide Offensive. After being badly beaten in the Tet Offensive of 1968, it took the communist North that long, nearly four years, to be able to gear up for another major offensive. We had only about 75,000 troops in country, and of those the “only U.S. Army ground combat units left in Vietnam were the 196th Light Infantry Brigade and the 3rd Brigade of the 1st Cavalry Division”. Mr. Howard should read “North Vietnamese Army's 1972 Eastertide Offensive”. It was American air power that was decisive, and rather than drop their bombs in the ocean, they took the fight to the enemy while seeking to spare civilians:

“The Soviet-built Lang Chi hydroelectric plant, located 63 miles northwest of Hanoi on the Red River, was capable of supplying up to 75 percent of Hanoi’s electricity, but breaching its dam could drown as many as 23,000 civilians. On June 10, F-4 laser bombers put 12 Mk .84s through the 50-by-100-foot roof of the main building, destroying the plant’s turbines and generators without putting a crack in the dam.”

We had begun the Vietnam troop drawdown in 1969, after our forces dealt the North a devastating blow during Tet. By 1973, our in country troop level was 50! South Vietnam fell in 1975.

South Vietnam did not fall because our troops laid down their weapons and our pilots dropped their bombs in the ocean. But Matt, while those VVAW guys mentoring you are possibly having Jim Massey-like memories that they are feeding you, they probably do have some great dope they'll maybe share!

IVAW hopes to have 100 veterans speak at the event. Once it ends, they'll document the testimony and package it for Congress.

Okay then! Package it for Congress! It is a repeat! And I truly hope they expect that John Forbes Kerry is the man obligated, obligated to enter this one into the Congressional Record! And, they'll have signed and transcribed documents about their claims BEFORE the WSI. They just don't want to let them out, even to the bodies with the lawful responsibility to investigate charges of crimes, and certainly not within sight of debunkers.


IVAW says it expects a number of veterans from Fort Drum to be at the event and it is hoping to get more veterans to attend and speak at the event and will help pay for any active duty soldier who wants to go and listen.

Yup, policy. So maybe IVAW will explain why the Surge strategy, which was not just increasing troops deployed by over thirty thousand, but moving combat units out from the larger forward operating bases into smaller outposts located in the areas where the civilians live – led to a drastic decrease in civilian deaths! If killing civilians is unit and Army policy, even if unofficial, wouldn’t more troops in closer proximity to the civilians have meant – more civilian deaths, not less?

Vague talk of ‘unoffical policy’, and no details to follow up on. But, they probably raised money, so it’s all good!

Thanks to Jay for the heads-up!

UPDATE: More fundraisers and more getting out the word about the upcoming WSI.

A B C D E F

55 comments:

Anonymous said...

Both the article and video read like an exercise in stenography as opposed to "journalism".

Mr. Keohane, I believe you have found your first "journalist"-designee for a D.U.P.E.S. introductory.

Denis Keohane said...

"Mr. Keohane, I believe you have found your first "journalist"-designee for a D.U.P.E.S. introductory."

Well thank you for that, and if the stitch in my side doesn't go away, you'll be billed by my medical provider!

:)

Anonymous said...

"I was messed up in the head. It was okay for me. I laughed afterwards. We all did. It's just the way things go."

Iraq war veteran Jon Turner said it was almost expected of him to pull the trigger on people who didn't need to die. So he did.


Jon Turner has publicly alleged that he has committed a war crime.

It is incumbent upon him to report such an incident to his superiors.

As an even minimally competent "journalist", Brian Dwyer of "News 10 Now" is aware of that fact.

What was Mr. Turner's response when Mr. Dwyer of "News 10 Now" inquired of Mr. Turner "Did you report this incident to your superiors"?

Was it left on the cutting room floor? I see no mention of this in the article.

Surely Mr. Dwyer asked? Didn't he?

Army Sergeant said...

Looking at these links, I don't see where Mike Swanson was actually protesting the war except when interviewed by the media. Do you have any other ones? It looks from here like they showed up to a dead buddy's funeral and were asked to leave just because they were IVAW. I can't seem to access the video at the KSAT site-is there another copy of it?

Also, you know I disagree that what will be around is signed and transcribed claims, and that we don't want the debunkers near. If anything, I'm offering to let possible debunkers in and give them the best seating I can manage.

Yes, it costs money for Winter Soldier, and people are trying to raise it. It costs money to try to get active duty and OIF/OEF vets out there for free when they can't afford it. It costs money to feed and house them. It's not like that money is all going to Roman-style excess with slavegirls feeding them grapes, you know.

Denis Keohane said...

Hi Sarge,

“Looking at these links, I don't see where Mike Swanson was actually protesting the war except when interviewed by the media. Do you have any other ones? It looks from here like they showed up to a dead buddy's funeral and were asked to leave just because they were IVAW. I can't seem to access the video at the KSAT site-is there another copy of it?”

I can’t get the KSAT video to play either, but it was Cpl. Timothy Swanson who was being buried. It was IVAW’s Mike Blake who we are talking about.

The KSAT article states “The self-proclaimed group, "Iraq Veterans Against the War" protested at Timothy Swanson's funeral on Monday.”

Now, we can all agree that what we read in the press might be “tainted” or worse, but, here is a site that had a discussion about that video. To their credit, three folks who identify themselves as IVAW come in and apparently after having seen that clip rip the protestors! They claim, and I have no reason to doubt it, that some folks at IVAW were disgusted with the protest.
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=32176628&categoryID=0&IsSticky=0&groupID=101872552&Mytoken=F6B13A1C-9AA6-4C51-86BA00618F8910E681642461

Good for them!

“Also, you know I disagree that what will be around is signed and transcribed claims, and that we don't want the debunkers near. If anything, I'm offering to let possible debunkers in and give them the best seating I can manage.”

Sarge, in another comment you wrote about signed materals as being hearsay or not evidence. You also said you are not an attorney. Neither of us is that, which is probably for the best. Sarge, there is evidence and then there is evidence. There is evidence that comes up to a high standard as admissible in, say, a trial. A formally signed and witnessed deposition or affidavit is that. There is another type of evidence, that is not as formal, and may not be evidentiary in a trial, but is certainly evidence for an investigation of a crime! That IVAW itself says they will collect written and transcribed statements about supposed crimes having been committed, and have them signed, is evidence for an investigation, if not a trial!

You are not a lawyer but you are an NCO. You, like me, know that when a person comes into possession of any information or material that can be critical to the investigation of a serious crime they are legally and morally obligated to reveal that information to the legal authorities. That is civilian law and UCMJ both!

But Sarge, don’t doubt for a minute that I don’t recognize that you are being on the up and up with the blogger/milblogger invite, and I respect you for that! We’ll disagree about a lot, but I believe you are more genuine than some if not many.

“Yes, it costs money for Winter Soldier, and people are trying to raise it. It costs money to try to get active duty and OIF/OEF vets out there for free when they can't afford it. It costs money to feed and house them. It's not like that money is all going to Roman-style excess with slavegirls feeding them grapes, you know.”

All true, but it is worth noting the tactics used at those fundraisers, which is why I draw attention to them. Again, as in that one, the IVAW members are stating the conclusions of this supposed investigation before the supposed investigation! And, IVAW did say they would have all testimonies transcribed so they could be signed before WSI. In short, they’ll have the resources for that. No excuse for not doing the legal and moral thing.

William P. Homans said...

John F. Kerry will definitely NOt be reading anything into the Congressional record from the IVAW Winter Soldier Investigation. John Kerry is a supporter of the Iraq/Afghanistan War. Besides that, John Kerry disavowed all future involvement with activities of the VVAW in 1972, between the Democratic and Republican Conventions. How do I know this? Because the person who took the call, at the VVAW Massachusetts office, in Cambridge, at a time when John Kerry was making his first run for national legislative office (for the vacated seat of Congressman Father Robert Drinan) was ME.

VVAW (and I am a Life Member and Oklahoma Contact) has nothing to do with John Forbes Kerry, and has not, since that phone conversation. If John Kerry had retained any BALLS since the time he honorably served in Vietnam, or at least since the time that he gave his famous testimony before the Joint House/Senate Committee in 1971, he would have rebutted the Swiftboaters and told them to slink back in their holes, would have ripped those purple bandaids off the smug faces of those Republican Convention delegates, and would be president today. Of course, the United States troops would still be fighting and dying in Iraq and Afghanistan, and he StILL has never vigorously spearheaded a GI Bill for the veterans of that war.

BLEEP John F. Kerry! He disavowed
the work of his VVAW bros while 8 of us were in jail on false charges of conspiring
to disrupt the Republican Convention (found not guilty in
Federal Court in Gainesville, Florida in 1973). He turned his back on his bros then, and he continues to turn his back on those who are young enough to be his sons and grandsons (and daughters)now.

William P. Homans
RA68105638
RVN 1969-70

William P. Homans said...

Re: "Great dope they'll maybe share".

You are pathetic, Mr. Keohane. If you can't answer with substance, smear, smear, smear. Swiftboat style to the nitty max.

Rightwingers have vowed to disrupt the IVAW WSI. I was talking with another VVAW yesterday, and she suggested that IVAW should just let the Right (as long as they are Iraq/Afghan War vets) come on in and testify. that may yet happen. I can tell you this: VVAW brothers will be providing security for the event. If persons try to physically disrupt the WSI, they will be removed, in the same way we removed the National Socialist White People's Party (the renamed American Nazi Party, who were being paid by the Committee to Re-Elect the President to disrupt the anti-Vietnam War movement) members from Flamingo Park in Miami back in 1972. No injuries, no beatings, no matter how certain Jewish VVAWs were tempted-- but we removed them, physically, and they did not return.

William P. Homans

Zero Ponsdorf said...

"I can tell you this: VVAW brothers will be providing security for the event."

This troubles me some. I hope the organizers have more sense than to INVITE trouble. Security outside the venue, fine, but inside? I hope not. If you need security inside give me a teeshirt and I'll help. I want this to be as peaceful as possible.

Won't keep me from showing up if invited, but this news is troubling.

William P. Homans said...

Zero,

How does it trouble you? there has already been one much more troubling incident almost two months before the event. IVAW's bus was torched in New Jersey this week.

SOMEBODY is trying to intimidate IVAW, and Right Wingers have already publicly vowed to disrupt the WSI (March 13-15). Now, back when we (VVAW) had our WSIs (1971), nobody made such threats. We provided our own security, but no incidents occurred.

But, as I have mentioned, the NSWPP attempted to disrupt the staging area of the antiwar movement, in Flamingo Park, at the Republican National Convention in Miami in 1972. they were being paid (over $12,000) by the CREEP, through a liaison, one Sandor Laszlo, who was a former member of the fascist Hungarian Arrow Cross Movement in World War II, who worked his passage to the US and became a high-ranking Republican operative.

the Swiftboaters have been exhaustively documented as having been paid 7 figures by wealthy Republican contributors, including texas real estate man Bob Perry, to do their hack job on John Kerry in the 2004 presidential campaign. that troubled the heck out of me, though perhaps you see it as legitimate.

I am not pointing fingers at any specific person or persons, but threats have been made, and arson has been already committed. the IVAW would be FOOLS-- and I know some of these young men, and they are not fools, but honorable US war veterans-- not to engage security personnel that they can trust 100 percent.

this Denis Keohane has already made smearing comments, about "great dope" we supposedly have, etc., against VVAW on this blog site (see my post earlier). Of course, it's not about us, it's about the IVAW, and about the war they fought in. But this is Swiftboat style smearing in the grand old fashion.

I didn't say anything about "inside" or "outside". Maybe security will be provided by telekinesis, mind over matter! Maybe force-fields will be employed, lol! Don't be alarmed, unless you yourself have some intention of disrupting the Winter Soldier Investigation. then, merely know that disruptions, whether by veterans, non-veterans, Democrats, Republicans, or pink-striped giraffes, will not be tolerated.

If you are an Iraq/Afghanistan vet, welcome home, brother!

Bill Homans

Denis Keohane said...

Hi Mr. Homans,

“John F. Kerry will definitely NOt be reading anything into the Congressional record from the IVAW Winter Soldier Investigation.”

Actually, I know that. But as you give details of the falling out between Tall John and VVAW, a whole lot of the new generation left doesn’t know that. I’d expect a lot of them would think Kerry is kinda obliged, since the first WSI led to his Fulbright testimony which launched his career in Massachusetts-Kennedy-Democratic politics.

“he would have rebutted the Swiftboaters and told them to slink back in their holes”

Of for gosh sakes, it’s not like Kerry people and almost the whole of the big media didn’t try – they just couldn’t!

“He turned his back on his bros then”

And you mean VVAW, not the men he served with whom he smeared, right?

Me: "Great dope they'll maybe share".

“You are pathetic, Mr. Keohane. If you can't answer with substance, smear, smear, smear. Swiftboat style to the nitty max.”

Uh, that’s not a smear. That’s a pithy comment on what was indeed going on at countless anti-war gatherings inthe 70’s, including those of which VVAW were a part. From a paper written in 1990-1 by a former member of the Vietnam era anti-war left:

“It was also during those years that marijuana and LSD, flooded the college campuses. There is no question that the widespread use of these drugs hurt the anti-imperialist movement, despite the fact that many leaders in the movement advocated drug use.”
http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/Vietnam/riseandfall.html

and...from a VVAW member's remembrance of the 70’s anti-war movement:

“Within a week, several thousand students occupied "the strip" on the main street of the town, in a wall-to-wall sit-in that extended for blocks. It was at first a festive street party, in which marijuana cigarettes and bottles of wine circulated freely.”
http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=83

Mr. Homans, to imply (as I did) that whoever led young Mr. Blake to believe the Vietnam War ended when American soldiers laid down their weapons and pilots dropped their bombs in the ocean must be partaking of good quality dope is among the kinder interpretations for that nonsense I could have offered.

As to substance, why don’t you point out what I had in error about Tet, Winter Tide, troop levels in 1970 through 1973 and after, and all that stuff!

“Rightwingers have vowed to disrupt the IVAW WSI. I was talking with another VVAW yesterday, and she suggested that IVAW should just let the Right (as long as they are Iraq/Afghan War vets) come on in and testify.”

First off, you don’t see anything like that here, do you? Second, try backing that up with something. Third, this site has requested and IVAW has agreed, with conditions, for bloggers and milbloggers of any position on the war or none come to WSI as observers to blog about it! What has you ticked so very off about that?

“I can tell you this: VVAW brothers will be providing security for the event. If persons try to physically disrupt the WSI, they will be removed, in the same way we removed the National Socialist White People's Party (the renamed American Nazi Party, who were being paid by the Committee to Re-Elect the President to disrupt the anti-Vietnam War movement) members from Flamingo Park in Miami back in 1972. No injuries, no beatings, no matter how certain Jewish VVAWs were tempted-- but we removed them, physically, and they did not return.”

Wow! Can you like document that, maybe? About the Committe to Re-elect and the neo-Nazis? By the way, I’ve ejected neo-Nazis myself. Do you have some kind of idea that everyone who does not agree with what IVAW is planning to do and what VVAW did in the first WSI is in bed with neo-Nazis, or are the dangerous radical right? I mean, Mr. Homans, it’s not like the anti-war left didn’t have its extremely violent types, like the Weathermen and SLA, and those wannabee violent types in the VVAW who proposed assassinating Senators! Remember?
http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getFiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2004/03/12&ID=Ar00100

Mr. Homans, there have been a whole lot of discussions on this site between folks who have serious disagreement, including IVAW members. It has been, despite intense feelings and beliefs on all sides, amazingly cordial! No one has been threatened, no one has spoken of disruptions, no one has even hinted at anything violent, and no one here has given any evidence of being remotely like neo-Nazis. The only person who has come here speaking of such is, well, you!

If I revert to my earlier and less restrained self, I might ask, you smokin’ something?

Which kinda brings us full circle....ya know?

Nice to hear that you VVAW are to provide security! I hope if that is so they are not as cranked up and primed as you appear to be. For my part, I’ve never yet heard of anyone using a laptop as a blunt instrument.

Denis Keohane said...

"IVAW's bus was torched in New Jersey this week."

Okay, challenged, big time! I've been following that story, and if you know of any source that has confirmed anything deliberate in that fire, please enlighten the entire world!

The driver, Jim Goodnow on the bus fire does not confirm that it was tirched!
http://blip.tv/file/600349/

Another site said that Mr. Goodnow 'speculates that the cause could have been anything from ARSON, to ATTEMPTED MURDER. He plans to notify the ATF Arson Squad on Saturday morning. Stay tuned....'
http://www.phillyimc.org/en/2008/01/44128.shtml

Speculates!

Another site claimed the bus was firebombed!
http://groups.google.com/group/OpenDebateForum/browse_thread/thread/6382a759e7d55bca

Another claims it was burned by an arsonist, and says "[Goodnow] and others there are looking into the origin of the fire and for Insurance reasons are reporting to the police.
http://community.freespeech.org/ivaw_bus,_nicknamed_quotyellow_rose,quot_burned_by_arsonists_in_nj

Reporting! What is the conclusion by the Fire and ATF folks? Any?

Another site calls it 'an act of incredible criminal stupidity'.
Where's the report saying it was intentional?
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2008/01/370929.shtml

Another says "Peace Bus Destroyed In Deliberate Arson Fire"
http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=1972&pst=871506

Proof?

The Sniper offers a bit of stuff to consider:
http://3-116thsniper.blogspot.com/2008/01/csi-ivaw-and-occams-razor.html

"Um, the engine compartment was engulfed in flames? Would that be the same engine compartment where the highly flammable gasoline is burned in the engine to create small explosions of intense heat and pressure in order to cause forward momentum? And aren't engines replete with oil and grease and other flammable substances? Are we talking about the same place where most venicular fires start? And if someone really wanted the guy dead, wouldn't they just point out the irony of driving a huge, gas-guzzling bus around the U.S. to protest the "War on Oil" and wait for the cognitive dissonance to make his head implode?

Just curious"

Oddly enough, Mr. Homer, about the same time:

"The Enid, Oklahoma EnidNews:
Bus catches fire after run
By Violet Spader Staff Writer

An Enid Public Schools 2004 Freightliner school bus was heavily damaged Thursday after catching fire in the bus lot.

The bus spontaneously caught fire while sitting in the lower lot...The driver had just completed his final route for the day.

“The problem is probably electrical,” Gelsthorpe said, “either the fuse box or the ignition switch.”
http://www.enidnews.com/localnews/local_story_018010746.html?keyword=topstory


and...

"NJ Courier News:
BRANCHBURG: No injuries in Route 28 bus fire

BY PAMELA SROKA-HOLZMANN
STAFF WRITER

Branchburg police responded to a small fire on Route 28 near New Orleans Steakhouse, which ignited from a faulty brake system on a NJ Transit bus, police said.
http://www.c-n.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080114/FRONT01/80114042

and...

"Pittsburgh’s Tribune-Review

Seton Hill team bus catches fire, no injuries
By The Tribune-Review
Saturday, January 12, 2008

Seton Hill University's men's basketball team had just stepped off a bus Thursday night after returning to the campus in Greensburg when the vehicle caught on fire...The team had disembarked at about 11:30 p.m. and the bus was headed down the school's lengthy drive toward College Avenue when the rear of the bus caught fire.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribunereview/news/westmoreland/s_547104.html

So Mr. Homer, while you too pass on the idea of the 'torched IVAW bus', maybe a fire department or ATF report that says so...other than over-active and quasi-paranoid reaction!

Denis Keohane said...

Mr. Homans,

Just checked Google News again - an no confirmation of torching, arson or any deliberate causing of that fire. Such might have been the case - maybe some proof and not speculation that leads to conclusion without supporting evidence?

Denis Keohane said...

Mr. Homer,

Not seeking to over-drive the point (well, okay, I am!), but if you go to Google News and search for "bus fire", you go through six pages before getting to the IVAW bus! What is clear is that non-intentional, non-arson, non-torching fires on buses are more common than deliberate ones!

You also notice that there has been zero news follow-up since that fire, meaning, no investigating authority has declared it a crime and are investigating.

So how do you know it was torched?

William P. Homans said...

Oddly enough, Sandor Laszlo (or Laszlo Sandor) is not to be found when googled in with "Hungarian Arrow Cross", or when "Republican Party" is added to that. It has been a lot of years since I read the reference. But given his background, I would be surprised if the Republican Party was not embarrassed at his participation, and had done their best to eradicate any reference.

VVAW ejected the Nazis from Flamingo Park on one or another day of 1972, during the Convention. I'll let you go search the Miami Herald or New York times for the front-page story on that, shouldn't be too hard to find, being a headline story. I was one of the ejectors.

No, I haven't kept up with the police's every revelation about the Goodenow bus story. And I will even tell you that while a volunteer firefighter in back-country Oklahoma, I once put out a spontaneous auto fire that occurred outside a church I was attending. this does happen, I will grant you.

But then, there are precious few buses driving around the US with "IVAW" on their sides, and Goodenow did note that before taking a nap at the truck stop he was parked at (I am a former truckdriver, so I know hose places well), he noticed "suspicious activiy" behind his bus. He said he
wishes he'd paid better attention. I'll keep my eye out for updates, as I'm sure you will now.

Lessee: you conflate some student party with VVAW activity. More smearing. Did any of us ever smoke pot while engaged in VVAW activity? Yes, it happened. Does that mean everybody did, or that people were so three-sheets-to-the wind that they didn't know what he heck they were doing? Of course not. Smear, smear.

I have stated that no disruption of WSI II would be tolerated. I stand by that. And I'm not a webgeek who's going to dig through everything I ever read to show you a link to it all, but threats HAVE been made to disrupt, if not here. We appreciate your restraint, if none such have been made here.

You wrote a bunch of stuff. I see you are pretty defensive about this bus business. Also pretty smug
and condescending. "Mr. Homer". I have used my real name while writing you, and referred to you by yours. I am William P. Homans, you may call me Bill, or by my stage name, Watermelon Slim. I am a touring bluesman and recording artist from Oklahoma City, go to www.watermelonslim.com. But I am also a Vietnam vet and lifetime member of VVAW. You may be all the condescending and snide you want, but that rolls off me like duck off a water's back, as they say.

All I will promise is civility, not acquiescence. And i believe, if you asked IVAW folks, they would tell you the same.

Night now,

Bill Homans

William P. Homans said...

Oh, btw,

not being a truckdriver (I am assuming that you are not, 10-4, pardon me if I am wrong), you probably are unaware that Greyhound buses, even former ones being used for antiwar activity, do not run on gasoline. they run on DIESEL fuel, which is a helluva lot less flammable, and not even explosive at all except under a compression ratio of about 24:1. Diesel fuel can be lit-- we used to use it in shitcans in Vietnam, where it would burn the faeces, but would not risk blowing up in somebody's face when lit. But it is unlikely-- not impossible-- that the Goodenow bus fire started like that. You just about have to apply a fire source to it, and be deetrmined about it, to get it going.

Like I said, I'll keep my eye out for updates.

Bill

Denis Keohane said...

Mr. Homans,

"But given his background, I would be surprised if the Republican Party was not embarrassed at his participation, and had done their best to eradicate any reference."

Simply, no one has that ability to stifle all info on a subject any more!

And, after I posted a comment I saw what I had done to your name. That was an unintended typo. I can't correct comments, or I would have after I saw it. I do typos. A lot. You know how many times I've had Keohane butchered? Never thought it was personal.

BTW, I've heard your band (recording, not live), and thought I recognized your name but couldn't place it. Blues well done, and I recommend anyone reading to go to your site.

You ever play Blues Alley in DC? Just took the three youngest there some weeks back on a marathon one day round trip drive to hear Mac Rebennack and the Lower 911. There's a history.

And I do know deisel is a lot harder to ignite than gasoline, but, I also got to put out the fire on a big deisel generator some years back. Oil leak, and the oil ignited.

And if that bus was intentionally torched, I sincerely hope that whoever not only destroyed property but also put a man's life at risk pays the legal price for that.

But even deisel Greyhounds catch fire:
http://www.dcfd.com/fg589.html

I'm not defensive about that bus thing, by the way. I just don't like the jumping to conclusions about violence with no grounds to do so with implications at my site that is very far from that kind of thing. I could have taken that as an intended smear!

"Lessee: you conflate some student party with VVAW activity. More smearing."

It wasn't a party! It was a "sit-in" anti-war demonstration involving thousands! Read what he said. The VVAW member described it as a party, meaning atmosphere, but he made it plain what it was! Thousands in an anti-war demonstration!

And, you still think jokes about pot are a 'smear'. You're a musician! I've known some, including blues musicians for decades. Want to tell me you've never heard someone razzing another that he must be 'high' to have said such and such, or asked 'What you smokin'?' and if you did, you thought that was a smear, and not a way of smacking down the statement as ludicrous!!!!?

"All I will promise is civility, not acquiescence."

Frankly, that's a pretty good description of what has been going on at this site, mostly, from all sides! Welcome!

Corporal Punishment said...

Exactly what unit was this individual assigned to? Who are his commanders and when was he in Iraq murdering innocent civilians?

What city/town, what opeartion, what units were involved, when exactly did it happen and to whom was it reported. Who else was involved? What are their names, their units, their commanders?

He has zero knowledge of the real history of Vietnam and he obviously has a vivid imagination.

If questioning his allegations for simple basics is a smear tactic, then what exactly should we call the tactic of smearing the entire US military and by extension the country through innuendo?

FB Eyes said...

Hey Homans.. remember in the early 70's the meetings in the dark attics of Cambridge lit by candle light..siting in circles with Hanoi John Kerry smoking dope?


Remember the FBI bust in front the the gov. center in Boston.. wanna know who was working for the feds and had infiltrated VVAW?

hows it feel to want?

just leting you know your BS isn't gonna fly this time. Any any one giving testimony will be required to sign an SF180 ..

How many Jesse McBeths are there on their way to DC this time?

My camera packed and I'm ready to go........... and one day true warriors will isuue the paynacks due to the present generation of traitors like you.

Robert Greer said...

**********************************
Exactly what unit was this individual assigned to? Who are his commanders and when was he in Iraq murdering innocent civilians?

What city/town, what operation, what units were involved, when exactly did it happen and to whom was it reported. Who else was involved? What are their names, their units, their commanders?
**********************************

Thank you Corporal Punishment

The above simple guideline should be enforced for all veterans who wish to give testimony at the Winter Soldier 2008 hearings

If Scott Camil properly reported the alleged sexual mutilation and murder of a Vietnamese woman to his intelligence officer John Murtha at the time that it happened the world would certainly be a better place today.

Scott Camil and the other Winter Soldiers have the opportunity to apply the above rule to their testimonies.

I propose that prior to the Winter Soldier 2008 Hearings the original Winter Soldier Hearings should be restaged using the original testimony and adding all pertainant information in accordance with the above rule.

All of the accused war criminals and their families should be named and invited to attend the event.

Eagle II - Support Our Troops said...

I see the minority is preaching once again.

VVAW needed a booster - they found their way to get back on the charts using IVAW. The nore attention you pay them Denis - the more they will hang out with their diatribe and their fight for a hopeless cause, which is trying to prove their left wing antics are proper and just.

If I were you I'd just hang up on them and ignore.

William P. Homans said...

Golly, FB Eyes,

John Kerry NEVER smoked any pot at any meetings, and I was at just about all of them in Cambridge from Sept. 1971 until Aug. 1974. In fact, John Kerry never appeared at any meetings in Cambridge after about June of 1971. He had other stuff to do, primarily (as we know now) having to do with his own political ambitions. I don't LIKE John Kerry, and I don't think you will find any present day VVAWs who do. I have already (above, in my first post on this site) told you how John Kerry turned his back on us mere vets.

I never saw John Kerry smoke anything at all-- not so much as a tobacco cigarette. And he would never take a wine bottle or anything from anyone who offered it. I think I saw him with a Budweiser once or twice. LSD? Good grief, you GOttA be joking?!!

I wasn't present at any FBI bust at Government Center. But you must have been. Maybe you were some kind of informant or snitch?

Spooks and stool pigeons suck.

You talk like an estranged VVAW I once went to school with, many years after the war ended. Izzat you, Julian? Naaah. Couldn't be!LOL.

Last I knew (back in 2004) Scott Camil's email address was scamil@att.net. Why don't you try it, and if you get through, see how he reacts to being called a traitor? In fact, why don't you go to Gainesville and call him one? He hasn't been a VVAW for 30-some years, but I'll bet you he'll have an interesting reaction to what you say. Remember, though, he's a former Marine...

***********************

Remember, this WSI II (like the IVAW WSI I) is not about VVAW. It's about the Iraq/Afghanistan War. Maybe you still have the idea that George Bush and Dick Cheney should be given full permission by the American public to make war on the entire Islamic middle east. Kill 'em all and let God sort em out mode. But it won't work. Iran, for instance, is 3 1/2 times the size of Iraq, both in geography and population, and "we" can't pacify that, much less win their hearts and minds.

And besides that, if 9/11 wasn't an inside job, then it was OSAMA BIN LADEN and AL-QAEDA that should have been pursued with an RDF IMMEDIAtELY after the attack. We should have paid Musharraf whatever number of billions of dollars he wanted to let us line up, double arm intervals, on the Pakistani border, enter Afghanistan, close with Al-Qaeda and the taliban, kill them and withdraw, to the applause of a grateful world. I'd have been proud to take part in such a mission, if only as a truck driver (my MOS).

But that wasn't Dick Cheney's agenda, so Osama was able to send us a video on election eve, 2004.
"We" blew it, because George Bush has no more idea about being a CIC than your pet cocker spaniel.

And while we (no quotes, this is our brothers and sisters I'm talking about now) are fighting and dying in a place that doesn't want us there, North Korea is readying itself for the time when we collapse through insane overextension of our shrinking military power. they won't be able to threaten us HERE, but they will one day march south, and our little garrison will be a bump in Kim Jong-Il's road, unless we use tactical nukes or the untried EMP technology. If tHAt's what you want, folks, you are truly certifiable!

"Bring it on!" George said in his faux flight suit on the deck of that aircraft carrier. Well, fine. If somebody's got a hardon about America, I say, too, "Bring it on." HERE.

I'll pay the airfare for one terrorist Islamic, or whatever religion they choose (atheist, even), to the US. Let's get 'em ALL here, put 'em up in a staging area, and let 'em have a week's lounging around, and then sell their massacre by armed Americans like you and me on Pay-per-View! I'm not near as bloodthirsty as I know you "real warriors" are, but even an old peaceful man like me would get a kick out of popping a cap on someone who was determined enough about hating America that they'd actually be willing to come here and try to make trouble! Let them come HERE, I say, sirs!

And tell Cheney to stay out of the way, if he can't tell a lawyer from a covey of quail!

And how about a real, honest-to-goodness GI BILL, not a bunch of "enlistment incentives", for the young people who are "taking the body" for the rest of the American population!! If our cause is just, we shouldn't have to be luring the kids in by letting them wig out on a bunch of "cool" violent vidgames! Such ruses are an utter subversion of real patriotism.

I reckon I've heard about enough from you chest-thumpers. If you want to go down to Washington and take pictures at the WSI, behave like gentlemen.

William P. Homans said...

Golly, FB Eyes,

John Kerry NEVER smoked any pot at any meetings, and I was at just about all of them in Cambridge from Sept. 1971 until Aug. 1974. In fact, John Kerry never appeared at any meetings in Cambridge after about June of 1971. He had other stuff to do, primarily (as we know now) having to do with his own political ambitions. I don't LIKE John Kerry, and I don't think you will find any present day VVAWs who do. I have already (above, in my first post on this site) told you how John Kerry turned his back on us mere vets.

I never saw John Kerry smoke anything at all-- not so much as a tobacco cigarette. And he would never take a wine bottle or anything from anyone who offered it. I think I saw him with a Budweiser once or twice. LSD? Good grief, you GOttA be joking?!!

I wasn't present at any FBI bust at Government Center. But you must have been. Maybe you were some kind of informant or snitch?

Spooks and stool pigeons suck.

You talk like an estranged VVAW I once went to school with, many years after the war ended. Izzat you, Julian? Naaah. Couldn't be!LOL.

Last I knew (back in 2004) Scott Camil's email address was scamil@att.net. Why don't you try it, and if you get through, see how he reacts to being called a traitor? In fact, why don't you go to Gainesville and call him one? He hasn't been a VVAW for 30-some years, but I'll bet you he'll have an interesting reaction to what you say. Remember, though, he's a former Marine...

***********************

Remember, this WSI II (like the IVAW WSI I) is not about VVAW. It's about the Iraq/Afghanistan War. Maybe you still have the idea that George Bush and Dick Cheney should be given full permission by the American public to make war on the entire Islamic middle east. Kill 'em all and let God sort em out mode. But it won't work. Iran, for instance, is 3 1/2 times the size of Iraq, both in geography and population, and "we" can't pacify that, much less win their hearts and minds.

And besides that, if 9/11 wasn't an inside job, then it was OSAMA BIN LADEN and AL-QAEDA that should have been pursued with an RDF IMMEDIAtELY after the attack. We should have paid Musharraf whatever number of billions of dollars he wanted to let us line up, double arm intervals, on the Pakistani border, enter Afghanistan, close with Al-Qaeda and the taliban, kill them and withdraw, to the applause of a grateful world. I'd have been proud to take part in such a mission, if only as a truck driver (my MOS).

But that wasn't Dick Cheney's agenda, so Osama was able to send us a video on election eve, 2004.
"We" blew it, because George Bush has no more idea about being a CIC than your pet cocker spaniel.

And while we (no quotes, this is our brothers and sisters I'm talking about now) are fighting and dying in a place that doesn't want us there, North Korea is readying itself for the time when we collapse through insane overextension of our shrinking military power. they won't be able to threaten us HERE, but they will one day march south, and our little garrison will be a bump in Kim Jong-Il's road, unless we use tactical nukes or the untried EMP technology. If tHAt's what you want, folks, you are truly certifiable!

"Bring it on!" George said in his faux flight suit on the deck of that aircraft carrier. Well, fine. If somebody's got a hardon about America, I say, too, "Bring it on." HERE.

I'll pay the airfare for one terrorist Islamic, or whatever religion they choose (atheist, even), to the US. Let's get 'em ALL here, put 'em up in a staging area, and let 'em have a week's lounging around, and then sell their massacre by armed Americans like you and me on Pay-per-View! I'm not near as bloodthirsty as I know you "real warriors" are, but even an old peaceful man like me would get a kick out of popping a cap on someone who was determined enough about hating America that they'd actually be willing to come here and try to make trouble! Let them come HERE, I say, sirs!

And tell Cheney to stay out of the way, if he can't tell a lawyer from a covey of quail!

And how about a real, honest-to-goodness GI BILL, not a bunch of "enlistment incentives", for the young people who are "taking the body" for the rest of the American population!! If our cause is just, we shouldn't have to be luring the kids in by letting them wig out on a bunch of "cool" violent vidgames! Such ruses are an utter subversion of real patriotism.

I reckon I've heard about enough from you chest-thumpers. If you want to go down to Washington and take pictures at the WSI, behave like gentlemen.

William P. Homans said...

Is This The Big One?

By Mike Whitney

21/01/08 "ICH" --- - On Monday, fears of a US recession spilled over into Asian markets sending stocks tumbling. Indexes were hammered across the board in what turned out to be the worst day of trading since 2001. In India, the Bombay Sensitive Index plunged 1408 points, to 17,605. In China, the Shanghai Composite dropped 266 points (or 5.5%) to 23,818, while in Japan, the Nikkei fell 535 points, to 13,325 points. The bloodletting stretched across the continent and into Europe where shares nosedived by more than 4% by mid-morning “putting them on track for their biggest one-day fall in more than four and a half years.”

The huge sell-off is a sign that global investors do not believe that the Fed's rate cuts or President Bush's $150 billion “stimulus package” can revive the flagging economy or breathe new life into the over-extended US consumer. After Monday's sharp downturn, the prospects for averting a deep and protracted recession are slim to none.

Economics Professor Nouriel Roubini summed it up like this nearly a month ago:

“The United States has now effectively entered into a serious and painful recession. The debate is not anymore on whether the economy will experience a soft landing or a hard landing; it is rather on how hard the hard landing recession will be. The factors that make the recession inevitable include the nation's worst-ever housing recession, which is still getting worse; a severe liquidity and credit crunch in financial markets that is getting worse than when it started last summer; high oil and gasoline prices; falling capital spending by the corporate sector; a slackening labor market where few jobs are being created and the unemployment rate is sharply up; and shopped-out, savings-less and debt-burdened American consumers who — thanks to falling home prices — can no longer use their homes as ATM machines to allow them to spend more than their income. As private consumption in the US is over 70% of GDP the US consumer now retrenching and cutting spending ensures that a recession is now underway.
On top of this recession there are now serious risks of a systemic financial crisis in the US as the financial losses are spreading from subprime to near prime and prime mortgages, consumer debt (credit cards, auto loans, student loans), commercial real estate loans, leveraged loans and postponed/restructured/canceled LBO and, soon enough, sharply rising default rates on corporate bonds that will lead to a second round of large losses in credit default swaps. The total of all of these financial losses could be above $1 trillion thus triggering a massive credit crunch and a systemic financial sector crisis.” ( Nouriel Roubini Global EconoMonitor)
Decades of stagnant wages have left the American worker hamstrung and unable to continue to account for 25% of global consumption. Tightening credit and lack of personal savings have only added to his problems. The American consumer is tapped-out. That means that aggregate demand will fall dramatically across the world triggering increases in unemployment, decreases in capital expansion, and widespread slowdown in business activity. These are the beginnings of a deflationary spiral that will wipe out trillions of dollars of market capitalization in the real estate, equities and bonds markets. Even gold and oil will retreat significantly. (as we saw in Monday's results)
The present crisis is not the result of normal market forces, but price fixing at the Federal Reserve and the financial engineering of the main investment banks. If there had been sufficient regulation of the activities of the Central Bank, so that interest rates had not been kept below the rate of inflation for over 31 months straight (under Greenspan) than the trillions of dollars in low-interest credit would not have flooded the real estate market, igniting a frenzy of speculative home-buying and creating the biggest housing bubble in US history. Despite his feeble excuses, Greenspan's role in destroying the US economy is no longer in doubt. Even the far-right Op-ed page of the Wall Street Journal conceded Greenspan's culpability in Saturday's edition. Here's what they said:
“Amid the daily market turmoil, and to help prevent a crash, it helps to step back and remember how we got here. With the benefit of hindsight, everyone can see that the U.S. economy built up an enormous credit bubble that has now popped. Our own view -- which we warned about going back to 2003 -- is that this bubble was created principally by a Federal Reserve that kept real interest rates too low for too long. In doing so the Fed created a subsidy for debt and a commodity price spike.”
Greenspan's low interest rates stimulated risky speculation that resulted in humongous equity bubbles. That much is certain. The Fed's “cheap money” policy generated artificial demand for housing which drove prices to unsustainable levels. Now we can expect to see a real estate crash unlike anything this country has experienced since the 1930s. That is the unavoidable outcome of Greenspan's "low interest" fake prosperity.
Greenspan is not the only one responsible for the present calamity. The financial markets have been reconfigured in a way that accommodates all manner of corruption. The new model, “structured finance”, allows worthless assets to be disguised by fraudulent ratings and sold to unsuspecting investors. At one time, this assertion might have been dismissed as the ravings of a conspiracy nut. But now we can find the similar accusations in the Wall Street Journal and on CNBC.
Here's the Wall Street Journal explaining how the $800 billion US current account deficit created a circular loop which channeled that money back to the U.S.:
"That capital flow and debt subsidy, in turn, became fuel for smart people in mortgage companies, investment banks and elsewhere to exploit. In a sense they created a new financial system -- subprime loans, SIVs, CDOs, etc. -- that is enormously efficient and brought capital to new places. But thanks to low interest rates and human enthusiasm, this debt spree also got carried away. ”
"Human enthusiasm”? Is that a euphemism for insatiable greed?
The Wall Street Journal admits that a new “structured debt” market was created to package dubious subprime liabilities (from “no doc”, no collateral , “bad credit” loan applicants) and sell them to hedge funds, insurance companies and foreign banks as if they were precious jewels. The WSJ avers that this is the way that “smart people” “exploit” the opportunities from lavish “capital flows”.
But was it “smart” or criminal?
Fortunately, that question was answered this week in an extraordinary outburst on cable TV by market-insider and equities guru, Jim Cramer. In Cramer's latest explosion, he details his own involvement in creating and selling “structured products” which had never been stress-tested in a slumping market. No one knew how badly they would perform. Cramer admits that the motivation behind peddling this junk to gullible investors was simply greed. Here's his statement:
"ITS ALL ABOUT THE COMMISSION”

(We used to say) “The commissions on structured products are so huge let's JAM IT.” (note “jam it” means foist it on the customer) It's all about the 'commish'. The commission on structured product is GIGANTIC. I could make a fortune 'JAMMING THAT CRUMMY PAPER' but I had a degree of conscience---what a shocker!--We used to regulate people but they decided during the Reagan revolution that that was bad. So we don't regulate anyone anymore. But listen the commission in structured product is so gigantic. (pause) First of all the customer has no idea what the product really is because it is invented. Second, you assume the customer is really stupid; like we used to say about the German bankers, 'The German banks are just Bozos. Throw them anything.' Or the Australians 'M O R O N S' Or the Florida Fund (ha ha ) “They're so stupid let's give them Triple B (junk grade) Then we'd just laugh and laugh at the customers and Jam them with the commission...That's what happened; that's what happened....Remember, this is about commissions, about how much money you can make by jamming stupid customers. I've seen it all my life; you jam stupid customers.” See the whole damning confession on: http://www.cnbc.com/id/22706231

Trillions of dollars in structured investments (CDOs, MBSs, an ASCP) have now clogged up the global economic system and are dragging the world headlong into recession/depression. Cramer's confession is a candid admission of criminal intent to defraud the public by selling products which people--within the financial industry---KNEW were falsely represented by their ratings. They sold them simply to fatten their own paychecks and because there is no longer any regulatory agency within the US government that curtails ilicit activity.
BOYCOTT US FINANCIAL PRODUCTS?
As the stock market continues its inexorable downward plunge, foreign central banks and investors need to reevaluate the present situation and aggressively pursue legal alternatives. They should initiate a boycott of all US financial products until an appropriate settlement for the hundreds of billions in losses due to the “structured finance” swindle can be negotiated. That is the best way that they can serve their own national interests and those of their people.
Deregulation has annihilated the credibility of US markets. There is no oversight; it's the Wild West. The assets are falsely represented, the ratings are meaningless, and there's a clear intention to deceive. That means that the stewardship of the global economic system is no longer in good hands. There needs to be a fundamental change. As the “nightmare scenario” of global recession continues to unfold; we need new leaders in Europe and Asia to step up and fill the void.

Robert Greer said...

*********************************************************
Last I knew (back in 2004) Scott Camil's email address was scamil@att.net.
Why don't you try it, and if you get through, see how he reacts to being called a traitor?
In fact, why don't you go to Gainesville and call him one? He hasn't been a VVAW for 30-some years,
but I'll bet you he'll have an interesting reaction to what you say. Remember, though, he's a former Marine...
*********************************************************
Who called Scott Camil a traitor ?

Scott Camil was loyal to the Marine Corps that he served.

John Murtha was loyal to the Marine Corps that he served.

Commandant Shoup was loyal to the Marine Corps that he served.

Even John Kerry was loyal to the people that he served.

The Winter Soldiers were loyal to their cause.

Jane Fonda was loyal to her cause.

The United States Marine Corps betrayed the Marines who served in the Vietnam War and betrayed the people of South East Asia.

The result was 2 million dead people.

You do not have to be a traitor to cause a holocaust.

Well meaning people of peace caused the Southeast Asian Holocaust.

What have they learned from their actions ?

Why are they so eager to repeat the same mistake in Iraq?

1st Cav RVN said...

"John Kerry NEVER smoked any pot at any meetings,and [I was at just about all of them in Cambridge from Sept. 1971 until Aug. 1974.]
... In fact, John Kerry never appeared at any meetings in Cambridge [after about June of 1971.]"

Typical "facts" of VVAW testimony. Can't even get the dates right for firsthand verification? Maybe you have anothersource or were you there before Sept '71?

Fb eyes said...
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Fb eyes said...
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Fb eyes said...
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Fb eyes said...
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Fb eyes said...
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EagleII_Supporting Our Troops said...
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William P. Homans said...

So now what are you going to do, FB Eyes,

Whatcha gonna do now, send a torpedo to whack me?

I am indeed William P. Homans, RA68105638, was in Viet Nam 1969-70, 1st Signal Brigade. You don't need to cloak-and-dagger with me, I'm a public figure. I am Watermelon Slim, a bluesman from Oklahoma, who served as Massachusetts State Coordinator with VVAW 1971-74. I am who I am. Save your FOIA money.

I am no friend of John Kerry. But in fact, before the Lord Jesus Christ at judgment day, I never took part in any secret meetings with John Kerry, and never saw him smoke any pot, not in any attics, nor anywhere else. Perhaps I was just not close enough to him ever to see such stuff, but he certainly never smoked tobacco in any form, and if you say he smoked pot at any time, why don't you bring it up with him, or with the DNC? Howard Dean would probably tell you to blow it out your rear, because even if Kerry didn't have the balls to confront the Swiftboaters, I'll bet Howard Dean does. And y'all are obviously Swiftboaters of some form or fashion.

Stolen Valor Act? Hmmm, that's a new one on me.

One thing I hate is the anonymity of the internet. Here are some more things you can identify me with, since you like playing spook: I received a BA, History and Journalism, Departmental Honors in History, University of Oregon, 1986, and an MA, Oklahoma State University, 2000, in History. My thesis, "North American Fascism: transmission of the Virus", culminated in my own independent investigation of suppressed and unfollowed leads in the case of the bombing of he Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

Now you fellas seem to have an animus to VVAW. If you are real patriots of some stripe, you ought to hate NAZIS, and tERRORIStS. the co-cospirators with tim McVeigh are still living and operating out of a White Supremacist compound called Elohim City, in Adair County, on the Arkansas border in Oklahoma. With a significant amount more money than I possess (but really, chump change, in today's economy), I would set aside the musical career I now am working in and amass a team of journalistic investigators to SURVEIL AND BUSt the Neo-Nazis who live there. If you weren't obviously unstable, FB Eyes, I might even hire you! Pay would be no less than 30K per annum.

Understand, there would be significant risk of life and limb, not just from the late Robert Millar's nest of Nazis, but from the US government, because the FBI and AtF do not want the real truth about the runup to the bombing made public. It would terminally damage their credibility.

My thesis is available publicly through the Oklahoma State University History Department. I would take it as a compliment if you, or anybody, were to request a copy, read it, and start your OWN investigation of Elohim City and the Murrah bombing. Y'all probably have the money, and the network of "bad boys" (ahem) that I do not.

On the other hand, being extreme Rightwingers, you may actually be in SYMPAtHY with the KKK/Nazi ultraright, in sympathy with the tim McVeighs of this world.

FB Eyes, or Eagle whatever or whoever, I don't know what meetings you're referring to. You obviously do, and were obviously there, or else you're going by someone's hearsay. I was never at any such meetings. I'm sure John Kerry, being who he was, knew people I didn't and don't. He was Skull and Bones at Yale, right? those kind of people like cloak-and-dagger, whether they end up being Repubs or Democrats.

I just found out that Skull and Bones is in possession of the skull and bones of Sitting Bull, and that his descendants are mighty pissed off about it, and want them back so they can be properly interred. If y'all wanted to do some real good in this world, you would make a frontal assault on whatever headquarters or venue that Society has in New Haven or wherever, recover the bones, and give them back to the Sioux.

I've never been to Vietnam in peacetime. I understand from some who have that the Vietnamese bear US GIs no animosity. they have been willing to bury the hatchet, especially since John McCain and John Kerry went there and negotiated a nomalization of relations with that country.

Maybe you'd like to turn back the clock to 1965, declare unilaterally the re-existence of "North" and "South" Vietnam, and unilaterally declare war on the "North" side. Maybe you just didn't kill enough while you were there, and you personally want more blood because you just ENJOY MURDER. Serious cases of PtSD, sirs. I myself had no kills. I was a combat support troop, PMOS of
64A10, DMOS 62N20. I put telephone cables and microwave crap on trucks going to various places in Vietnam.

Wanna know my most vivid memory from Vietnam, the image that remains most crystal clear, almost 40 years later? I was down in Saigon (I wasn't supposed to be there, but some buddies talked me into accompanying them on an unoffical trip down there for dope and whores. One of them was a shooting-up junkie, and I watched, secrely horrified, as he tied off and shot up-- I've never watched the process again to this day, and I hope to God I never will).

After having my short-time, I wandered down tu do Street a bit, where I watched an old stake bed truck slowly lumbering down the street picking up garbage. there must have been a truck-and-a-half's worth of rotten garbage in the bed of it.

What I will never forget as long as I live was seeing little children, some as young as 4-5 years old, following the truck (it never did exceed walking speed) and picking through the garbage that was constantly falling off the back, looking for food, and eating what they found. tHAt, sirs, is the image of war that I carry with me until my dying day. And that, sirs, is why I will always be a Vietnam Veteran Against the War.

When I went to the Wall, I began to attain some closure to this shattering experience. May God somehow, some day, bring you some closure too.

Hoa Binh, Brothers,

William P. Homans

William P. Homans said...

Well. I just googled up te Stolen Valor Act. Gentlemen, I AGREE with its intention, and it does not even appear to be a badly written law.

But it doesn't apply to me. I received nothing but the National Defense Service Ribbon, the Vietnam Service Ribbonj, and the Vietnam Campaign Ribbon, in other words, the most basic decorations authorized for one who spent a tour (or, as in my case, most of a tour) in Viet Nam. I have never claimed to have received any citation or award for valor in Viet Nam or anywhere else.

I do bear a scar on my left leg where one of the National Socialist White People's Party members we ejected from Flamingo Park (see above posts) kicked me with his steel-tip jackboot. I consider this MY Purple Heart, civilian variety. My father fought the Nazis in World War two with the BRItISH Navy, which he joined as a 17-year-old ensign in 1939. When America joined the war, he returned to the US, joined the AMERICAN Navy, and spent the rest of the war in the Pacific theater fighting the Japanese. thus, I am a second-generation Nazi-fighter, and proud of it! If you go to Greenwich, England, to the Royal Naval College, and you enter the Painted Hall (an artistic experience that you would want to have anyway) from the North end, go up the stairs and turn left, you will find a white marble memorial set in the floor to my father and 19 other young Americans who dropped what they were doing and volunteered for service with the Royal Navy before America was in the war.

I enlisted in the Army and volunteered for Nam service. I was a naive kid, but there is no way I would ever have shirked war service, given my father's beyond-the-call-of-duty record, and the record of all of my family going back to Samuel Adams.

You can do what you want, y'all, but as you can definitively discern, this Stolen Valor Act does not apply to me.

Okay?

William P. Homans said...

And one more thing: I remember the flap over this Jesse McBeth, and I am as outraged as you over his lies and misrepresentation of service. We all were, in VVAW. I never did dig into it far enough to figure out his motivation, but then (besides the snitch money) I could never figure out why William Lemmer former enlisted man with the Americal Division, told the stories he did to the government in the case of the Gainesville Eight conspiracy trial.

William P. Homans

Fb eyes said...
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William P. Homans said...

I just found out that Skull and Bones is in possession of the skull and bones of Sitting Bull, and that his descendants are mighty pissed off about it, and want them back so they can be properly interred. If y'all wanted to do some real good in this world, you would make a frontal assault on whatever headquarters or venue that Society has in New Haven or wherever, recover the bones, and give them back to the Sioux.

****************

One of the ceremonies which I now understand was part of the initiation to Skull and Bones was that initiates had to KISS tHE SKULL OF SIttING BULL. If I disliked John Kerry before, I fucking (pardon me for an obscenity, Denis Keohane) HAtE him now. I hope some Lakota person gets close enough to Kerry one day (and George H. W. and George W. Bush, in addition) to piss on his shoes!

I haven't got the desire to do the time I would have to do for the felony I would certainly be charged with for such an act. But trust me, y'all, I hate John F. Kerry as much as you do. the more I find out, the more I detest the SOB.

Grim Reaper said...
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William P. Homans said...

Jesus,FB Eyes,

Do your spook work right! I have already told you. I am William Perkins Homans III, RA68105638, enlistment date 7 March 1969, EtS date 21 May 1970, Selective Service number 6 17 49 335, place of enlistment South Norwalk, Connecticut, Blood Group AB+, RVN Service dates 31 August 1969-21 May 1970, discharged under honorable conditions, birthplace Boston Massachusetts April 25 1949, Last duty assignment HC 1st Signal Brigade USA Stratcom USARV.

I'm just reading off my DD 214.

You have found a couple of other Homanses, including one William (J.) Homans, that I don't even know, didn't even know there was anybody else with my name living in the US. My name is not a common one. But you have apparently not found mine, although you have found addresses that I have indeed lived at in years past. If I remember correctly, there was a big fire at the USA BUPERSMAN (Bureau of Personnel Management a number of years ago, in which many, many records were apparently destroyed.

Why don't you calm down. Jaysus! Whaddya want next, my bank account numbers!? Do you want me to come where you are so you can torture and kill me? I've lived a full life. I've had a heart attack and a stroke, I'm ineligible for any medical treatment that is not cash on the barrelhead (except, I suppose, through the VA). I am living my life without a safety net already. If you are threatening my life, come here and get it over with, if you think I've done something that deserves capital punishment.

FUCK YOU, YOU SPOOK SON OF A BItCH! Sorry, Mr. Keohane, this person hiding behind a pseudonym and playing spook is going far beyond any bounds of decency. If I was trying to hide from anyone, I wouldn't have given 1/100th of the information I have VOLUNtEERED IN tHE INtERESt OF tRUtH.

If you want to take my life, whoever you are, why don't you just come to one of my gigs and kill me? But do me a favor: be professional and shoot straight.

I tried to be civil, Mr. Keohane, and, in addition, to be historically accurate, to the best of my ability. But if the idea is persecution, sir, and you are getting a kick out of it, you are a sick puppy.

I haven't had any real enemies for decades. But since it has become clear that FB Eyes, or you, think of me as one, I am warned. You are, obviously, part of a network of killers. I am one unarmed man. Big tough fellas. Well, come on, finish me off, get your sick kicks.

You are the very kind of people--tripwire vets-- for whom PtSD disabilities were intended. I'm not afraid of you, though anyone going into combat is either afraid or insane. But I PItY you, every man jack of you.

William P. Homans

LRP67-69 said...

Hmmmmmmm do I smell a wannabe melting

Anonymous said...

This is Scott Swett, owner and webmaster of WinterSoldier.com. I would like to make it clear that "Grim Reaper" has no association with that website, despite the fact that he has chosen to link his posting handle there.

William P. Homans said...
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Anonymous said...

Save your bluster and paranoia for your friends at ANSWER, Homans. Bring your VVAW goon squad, bring your mommies for all we care - we wouldn't piss on any of you even if you burst into flames.

It's not 1971 anymore and you're not going to be dealing with a bunch of Nazis who were standing in the Miami sun too long. You're going to be contending with the veterans you defamed 37 years ago, along with the next generation of men and women who will not suffer a repeat of that slanderous episode in silence. We're coming to Washington in March to exercise our First Amendment rights to peacefully assemble and denounce IVAW's futile attempt to sully the honor of their fellow servicemen and women for their own personal and/or political gain. If you want to call that "disrupting" IVAW's kangaroo court, knock yourself out, but the only thing that we'll come armed with is the TRUTH, and the TRUTH will be spoken to IVAW's lies. I know that terrifies you, otherwise you wouldn't have to lie about people intending to physically disrupt WSI2, but you'll just have to get over that. Our voices WILL be heard, and there's not a damned thing you can do about it.

SEE YOU IN MARCH.

FB Eyes said...
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FB Eyes said...
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Grim reaper said...
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streetsweeper95B said...

Quote william p homans....."And besides that, if 9/11 wasn't an inside job, then it was OSAMA BIN LADEN and AL-QAEDA that should have been pursued with an RDF IMMEDIAtELY after the attack."

Mr Homans; Are you saying the live footage shot on the street level of two loaded jetliners flying into both WTC Towers wasn't real?

The debris flying forward & outward & ensuing fireballs in both buildings were staged? A Hollyweird FX talent show? Is that it? Where you sitting in your math class? Drivers Ed class? You were a volunteer fireman & responded to crash scenes?

Come on, I'll buy that part only if you can prove it beyond any shadow of a doubt.

I learned a bit about vehicle crashes, measuring, photographing, extracting the victims, one or two shoehorned up under the dashboard, some impaled where they sat behind the steering wheel by the steering column (those are messy)those that launch through the windshield, (now those are really messy!) but nothing like decapitated by a guardrail slicing through an engine compartment or right over the hood into the cab. Not being a smarta$$,sir. I'm simply using the experience gained from that in an effort to try & put the proper perspective on your statement there.

Answer best you can without bloviating, sir. I'll be watching for it.

Thanks Denis. Hope you get to enjoy quality time with your son.

William P. Homans said...

I have quoted you my DD214. I'll carry it with me now, so you can see it if you decide to confront me on my gig trail. I don't know how to send a fax, else I'd send it to this blog. If you don't, so much the better. If you don't, none the worse. I'm surprised that Denis Keohane hasn't pulled you up on a leash for your wholly inappropriate posting of my residence information. I will be consulting a lawyer about it.

I still think you bad boys ought to go to New Haven or wherever those Skull-and-Bones people have their initiation ceremonies and bust their butts. I think you should get your priorities straight. As I said before, this ain't about me, it's about the war,and about Kerry, if you will.

I'm a Vietnam vet, RA68105638, and have never claimed any decorations for valor. Not even a GCM. So this Stolen Valor Act (which, as I said, I agree with) does not apply to me. May God help you achieve closure.

Willim P. Homans

FB Eyes said...
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Fb eyes said...

PS:

No where in any posts were you threatened with any type of implied or other physical harm homans. I just read through them - nothing.

The only threat that was viable is your exposure if not a Vietnam Vet as claimed.

Denis Keohane said...

Anyone still reading this thread, go here:

http://keohane.blogspot.com/2008/01/listen-up-people.html

Army Sergeant said...

Finally pointing out, to clear the record now that I have been informed:

Timothy Swanson was an IVAW member.
They weren't protesting at his funeral, they were attending it.

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